Courage and Connection: John Lee Dumas on Military Life and Mental Health

Speaker: 00:00:06

Suicide,

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Zen Forgiveness, shattering

stigma, igniting hope, End.

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Silence,.

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Stigma, the shame surrounding

suicide ideation, and mental health.

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We talk about the hard stuff

because asking for help should

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be as easy as ordering coffee.

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Here we share real stories.

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to those Who lost someone

ideation, mental health challenges?

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Why becuase sharing your

burden can lighten your load

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PLEASE note, Suicide Zen forgiveness.

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The podcast is for education only.

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Some of the subject matter could be

triggering for those who are either

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grieving or having mental health problems.

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If you are in North America, you can

text 9 8 8 for immediate support.

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And if you're elsewhere, please

reach out to your local suicide

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hotline for mental health services.

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You matter.

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My aim is to normalize the

conversation so you feel safe

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enough to speak up and ask for help.

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So now let's start the show.

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I am so glad to be back.

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I met my next guest back

in: 2011

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Actually, he was just starting

out as a podcaster, and I noted

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even then he was dedicated,

incredibly kind and in all honesty.

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To this day, he's still one

of the most genuine good guys

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he could ever hope to meet.

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I'm honored to bring you John Lee

Dumas, a renowned entrepreneur and

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podcaster best known for his show,

entrepreneurs on Fire before his

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success in the podcasting world.

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Dumas served in the US Army for

approximately eight years, including

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a 13 month deployment in Iraq.

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As an Armor platoon leader,

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John graduated from Providence College

in: 2002

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as an officer in the Army.

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His commissioning class was actually

the first to enter service following

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the events of September 11th, 2001.

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Initially, he wanted to join

the Army Corps of Engineers.

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But Dumas assignment shifted to armor

due to administrative disruptions

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caused by the nine 11 attacks.

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In 2003, John deployed to Iraq

leading a tank platoon of 16

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men through areas such as R

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having not ha,

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sorry if I've pronounced those wrong.

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Reflecting on his military experience

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through areas such as Ramadi and Hania.

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Reflecting on his military experience,

John has highlighted the importance of

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making timely decisions, emphasizing

that a good decision now is better

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than a great decision leader.

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He also underscores the value of

humility and learning from experienced

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team members, noting his reliance

on his platoon sergeant's expertise

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during his early days as a leader.

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These leadership lessons from his military

service have profoundly influenced

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John's entrepreneurial journey shaping

his approach to business and mentorship.

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I was lucky enough to reconnect

with John in January at Pod Fest in

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Florida, and he was gracious enough

to agree to come on the podcast.

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So without further ado, let me

introduce you to John Lee Dumas.

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John, I talked about the fact that

you were commissioned, I believe

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after 2002, and yours was the.

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First class to enter service following

the events of September 11th.

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I believe that is true.

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2001?

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Yes.

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Wow.

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Wow.

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You were, originally you wanted to be

Army Corps of Engineers, but because of

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the disruptions to do with the nine 11

attacks, you actually shifted to armor.

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John Lee Dumas: Yeah, that's a

pretty interesting and quick story

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that I'll tell you just 'cause I

think it, really reminds us of how

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traumatizing that, that day was.

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But in the summer of 2001, I was going

into my senior year, so we do what's

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called six Weeks of Advance camp,

and that's training up in Washington

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specifically Fort Irwin, Washington

states a little south of Tacoma.

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And it was a really great experience.

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I actually.

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Performed very well.

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I became what's called a top 4% cadet.

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And the reason why that's relevant is

because it gave me the choice to choose

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what branch I wanted to get into.

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And so I chose engineers.

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And I thought I was all

wrapped up with that.

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And then of course, nine 11 happens and

it was a terrible experience overall.

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But then we get called in a week after

and our commander says to us like, Hey.

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This is gonna sound pretty

crazy, but it's true.

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The part of the Pentagon that

got hit by the plane was the ROTC

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departments and all of the records,

which by the way were all handwritten.

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At the time it wasn't even computerized.

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So we had sent in like paper

copies of that and that's how

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they processed it back then.

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So there was no backups.

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They said it just got.

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Vaporized.

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Like it just completely,

it was a total loss.

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So what they were doing now was

they were going to essentially

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randomly assign everybody.

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'cause they just didn't have time

to go back and do this because they

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had other things to worry about.

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Of course, post nine 11.

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So that was the reason I got randomly

assigned armor and I survived.

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So I guess I can say that, things

could have been worse, but I'll tell

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you, it was it was a tough road.

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My,

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

I can only imagine.

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You led a tank platoon during

a 13 month deployment in Iraq.

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My father did 13 months in Aiden in

Yemen, and that was his first deployment.

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Wow.

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Back in 1953.

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Things have changed a little.

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What impact did that responsibility

and the high stress environment

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have on your own mental wellbeing?

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During and after service.

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John Lee Dumas: During you're locked

in because there's no alternative.

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You either just execute and

perform your mission or you're

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putting yourself, and even more

importantly, your soldier's at risk.

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So you just go into this weird head

space of just I'm just a soldier

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and I'm going to follow orders,

and I'm going to give orders and

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I'm going to execute the mission.

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Now there's a lot of things

that are going on under the

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scene, like below the surface.

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At that point as well.

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And for me I felt like the first

few years out of the Army when I had

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got, when I redeployed back to the

states and then I, reintegrated and

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I transitioned outta the military and

reintegrated into the civilian world.

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I was like, man, I must have dodged

a bullets, like both figuratively.

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'cause I dodged some bullets in Iraq,

but both figuratively and literally.

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I dodged a bullet emotionally because

I felt like I was not dealing with any

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PTSD that I was hearing was so common

and I felt very fortunate about that.

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Now, fast forward just about a year I

enroll into law school, and law school

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is a very high stress environment and

that high stress environment like.

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Just popped a screw in my

brain that I didn't even know

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was loose, and I experienced

severe PTSD, like severe trauma.

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I was depressed, I was sad.

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Like for me the feeling

was mostly just like.

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I just don't care about anything and

that's actually a terrifying feeling.

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'cause like when you care about stuff a

lot, like I used to I'm from New England

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so I used to watch the New England

Patriots football and I would live or die

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by the touchdowns, the wins, the losses.

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Like it would make my day a ruin my day.

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But I would be watching that them on ta.

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I'd be like, who cares?

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Like I have no emotion.

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About this.

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And that was my first tip off

of whoa, like something's wrong.

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And so it took, therapy,

it took medication, it took

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time to to get over the PTSD.

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But I was able to do it, it did

cause me to drop outta law school.

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I just couldn't take it emotionally.

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And I went on a four month

backpacking trip in India to just

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lose myself slash find myself.

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And, I had a good time.

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I wouldn't say I had any incredible

emotional experiences there.

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It was just a good trip

overall, but nothing crazy.

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And I'd say it wasn't really until

my early thirties that I really

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felt like I was able to shrug

it off, for the most part, it'll

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always be with me on some level.

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I still think of, the four soldiers

that were in my platoon of the 16.

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So 25% that gave the ultimate sacrifice.

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That's always gonna be with me, and

that's always gonna be part of, the

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emotional trauma and baggage that I carry.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Absolutely.

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I call it the grief train.

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Once we board, we're there for life.

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We just sometimes get off at a stop and.

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Bring on a little more baggage.

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John Lee Dumas: That's a good analogy.

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Do we ever drop off

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: baggage?

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Sadly, no.

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No, we

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John Lee Dumas: don't.

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That's too bad.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Now

one thing I'll say, like you

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were in the army for eight years.

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John Lee Dumas: Yeah.

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Four active foreign in the reserves.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Wow.

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And you have spoken even in your

entrepreneurial journey about

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learning to lead by leaning into

your platoon sergeant and making

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timely decisions under pressure.

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How do you think the military

training prepares or doesn't prepare

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soldiers for the emotional and

psychological toll of deployment?

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John Lee Dumas: One interesting thing

that I learned as an officer, and

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this was you know, from my platoon

sergeant, was that a good decision now

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is better than a great decision later.

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That's a very important thing for

entrepreneurs to absorb as well, because

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if you don't have that understanding

in the military you might die.

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'cause if you're paralyzed and you're

not making any decision, 'cause

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you're trying to think of this great

decision and it causes no decision

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right away, that is jeopardizing

your life and your soldier's life.

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So listen, make the best decision

you can right now and move forward.

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It might not be perfect.

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It might not be great.

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But a good decision now is better

than a great decision later.

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And I took that into entrepreneurship

because I see so many entrepreneurs and

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business owners, they're just paralyzed

with trying to come up with the best

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decision, the best action, the perfect

idea, and that never really exists.

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So they just stuck there.

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It's called like failure to launch.

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So for me, I never had that problem.

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'cause I learned that in the

military and I just make.

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Good decisions, really the best

decisions that I can make with the

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information that I have at that time.

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And then I drive forward

and I don't second guess it.

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And sometimes it's the wrong decision

and then I pivot, I adjust, I back up.

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I, make a change.

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And then I drive forward again.

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And for me, that's always allowed

me to keep moving forward.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: I think

that's such an important point.

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Because being a military brat myself,

I was around a lot of military

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people and the onus is always on you.

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The onus is always on you to

pick up dust off and continue.

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I come from Scotland and have half

Irish background, so picking yourself

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up and just going, it's all we knew.

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You just didn't have an option.

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And I think that's really important

because in the entrepreneurial world,

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we can not just be paralyzed, but we can

overthink and over research and overdo to

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the extent that we actually are stuck in

place forever, which is really not useful.

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And something you talk about in the

entrepreneurial world which I think.

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Is important for veterans.

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You know anyone who's been

trained for combat and high stakes

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decisions, you talk about shifting

your mindset to prioritize mental

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health and ask for help when needed.

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John Lee Dumas: You've gotta do it.

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That's one reason why I say you're the

average of the five people you spend

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the most time with, because those people

have to be individuals that you know,

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that you like, that you trust that will

tell you when something's off with you,

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and maybe can recommend, a resource or

a person that you can talk to, whether

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that be a therapist or fill in the blank.

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Like you need that support group around

you that you really do know and trust.

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It's such a critical part to

not just every entrepreneurial

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journey, but to the human journey.

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And I think you know this, Elaine, that

I end every one of my entrepreneurs on

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fire shows with that quote, you're the

average of the five people you spend the

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most time with because frankly, it's true

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And I

can say I absolutely know that.

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Because I was there for the first show.

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John Lee Dumas: That's crazy.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

A very long time ago.

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John Lee Dumas: 13 years.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

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Wow.

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It's almost 14 now.

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John Lee Dumas: Crazy.

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It's wow.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: One thing

that, that to me is very important

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because I have to say as much as I heard

you say it and other people say it.

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I started out life very differently

and trying to go it alone and

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keep my head down, not let the

family get hurt, not bring anybody

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in if something wasn't right.

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And I can now say that is absolutely

the wrong way to do everything.

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No man or woman is an island, and it's

so important that we learn that because

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when you're vulnerable, when you open up.

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To others is when you are

actually the strongest.

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And I think that's so

incredibly important.

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Many returning service

members carry invisible scars.

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And I, I know something about those too.

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What would you say to the

civilians who wanna support them?

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But really have no idea how to

approach that topic of trauma or

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suicide risk in a respectful way.

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John Lee Dumas: So for me it's

one of those things where, we're

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human beings, we love stories.

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There's a reason why history broken up

into two words is his story, her story.

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Like we all have stories and, a lot

of soldiers and military veterans,

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they just wanna be heard, like they

wanna be heard because if they're

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asked by somebody who they care about.

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To, to be heard.

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Then they feel like they're

there like that, that it's real,

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that they have that support.

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So a lot of civilians try to avoid, those

conversations and try to avoid, maybe.

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Picking at that scab, so to speak,

that they may envision as there.

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And by the way, some veterans may not

wanna talk about certain things and

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may not wanna talk about anything,

and that's totally their prerogative.

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But I can tell you that if you

approach it in a respectful way of

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something like, Hey, listen, you mean

a lot to me, like I care about you.

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I'd love to hear more about your

story when you were in the military.

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Doesn't have to be, everything doesn't

have to be a lot of things, but

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if there's something that you feel

comfortable talking about or that you

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want to talk about, I'm here for you.

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I wanna hear that.

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I wanna listen to you, and then

just respect what they say.

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If they say, Hey, it's not

something I like to talk about.

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Listen, they're still gonna be

thankful and grateful that you asked.

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'cause it means that you care.

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It means that you see them.

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And then some of them might

be like, I'm glad you asked.

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It just, it really helps me

to talk about this stuff.

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So I.

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Let's go grab a coffee and I'll

tell you some stories and that's

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one thing that veterans do when

veterans get together, man.

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We just get together and we just

tell stories because it's fun and we

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resonate with it and it brings back

the good times and the bad times.

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And, misery loves company we can

talk about the misery that we

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had and different scenarios and

it's just better for everybody.

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And, sometimes it's just good

to talk about this stuff.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

That's such a good point.

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And I think.

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Even being there with someone and

offering to listen is wonderful.

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If they don't wanna say anything,

just offer to stay and just be there.

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I say on this show all the

time, that when you share your

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burden, it lightens somewhat.

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Whoa.

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And I believe that.

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That's why people tell their stories,

because this is the one way you do lose

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a little of the baggage is when you share

it among those that you're traveling with.

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John Lee Dumas: I love that.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Thank you.

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Thank you.

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I'm so grateful that you

agreed to come on the show.

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I am once again, really thrilled.

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That I met you when I did, and that I

have got to see you grow through the

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years and become a married man with a

darling little boy and a lovely wife.

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John Lee Dumas: Oh, 16 months old.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh yeah.

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He's so cute.

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And I think it's just really

important for people to know.

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You can ask for help.

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It doesn't matter if you

are an entrepreneur on fire.

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It doesn't matter if you've

been doing things for years.

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It doesn't matter how long you've been

in the military because we lose four

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: 00:19:25

times as many men as we lose women,

and that's because men were taught.

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: 00:19:32

Don't show it.

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: 00:19:33

Don't do it.

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: 00:19:34

Don't say it.

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: 00:19:36

Just be stoic.

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: 00:19:39

Not a good way to be, and I think

it's critically important for

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: 00:19:44

us to get the message through.

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: 00:19:46

So what is one thing you can

leave our audience with, John?

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: 00:19:52

John Lee Dumas: It's a quote I love

from Albert Einstein, which is try

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: 00:19:56

not to become a person of success,

but rather a person of value.

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: 00:20:02

A lot of people are just chasing success

and they're leaving behind the fact

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: 00:20:05

that they have real value to give,

like the value that you're giving here

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: 00:20:08

today, Elaine, give value to people,

like how can you be of service of value?

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: 00:20:14

And when I started thinking in that

manner, everything changed for me.

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: 00:20:17

And I hope that lights a light bulb

for some people watching here today.

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: 00:20:21

And I, I respect your

hashtag, say their name.

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: 00:20:24

So I just wanna say Andrea,

Holly, Brian, Peter Margaret's.

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: 00:20:29

Ken Emma, you're not forgotten.

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: 00:20:34

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

Thank you for that.

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: 00:20:37

I so appreciate you coming

to join us, everybody.

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: 00:20:40

You'll find all of John's

information below the podcast.

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: 00:20:44

As per usual, this has been

suicides and forgiveness.

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: 00:20:49

I'm Elaine Lindsay, and until we

see you again next time, make the

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: 00:20:53

most of your today, every day.

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: 00:20:56

Thank you, John, so much.

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: 00:21:01

Voiceover: Thank you for being

here for another inspiring episode

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: 00:21:04

of Suicide Zen Forgiveness.

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: 00:21:06

We appreciate you tuning in.

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: 00:21:08

Please subscribe and download on your

favorite service and check out SZF

348

: 00:21:12

YouTube channel or Facebook community.

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: 00:21:14

If you have the chance to leave

a five star rating or review,

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: 00:21:17

it'd be greatly appreciated.

351

: 00:21:20

Please refer this to a friend you

know who may benefit from the hope

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: 00:21:23

and inspiration from our guests.

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: 00:21:26

Suicide Zen Forgiveness was brought

to you by the following sponsors.

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: 00:21:30

TROOL Social Media the digital

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: 00:21:34

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one in the search results.

356

: 00:21:37

Canada's keynote, humorous, Judy Croon,

motivational speaker, comedian, author,

357

: 00:21:42

and standup coach at Second City.

358

: 00:21:44

Judy has been involved for over

a decade in the City Street

359

: 00:21:47

Outreach program in Toronto,

360

: 00:21:49

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

the ultimate podcasting pack.

361

: 00:21:53

This is great for you if you're just

starting your podcast or if you've

362

: 00:21:58

been running it for a while, it's

filled with tools, templates, and

363

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trainings for starting, growing,

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364

: 00:22:07

Get access to time saving systems and

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365

: 00:22:13

At each step, find new connections

and collaborations in the

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: 00:22:18

uplifting podcasting community.

367

: 00:22:21

I look forward to seeing you there.

368

: 00:22:25

Voiceover: Do you have a story to share?

369

: 00:22:27

Do you know someone you

think would be a great guest?

370

: 00:22:31

Please go to SZF four two.com

371

: 00:22:34

and for our American listeners,

that's SZF four two.com.

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: 00:22:39

Thank you for listening and

we hope to see you again.