Episode 10

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Published on:

11th Feb 2025

Renewed Hope After Loss: Maddie's Story

The podcast episode features a heartfelt discussion with Chris Coulter, who lost his daughter Maddie to suicide and has since dedicated his life to addressing mental health issues. The episode emphasizes the importance of ending the silence, stigma, and shame surrounding suicide and mental health struggles. Chris shares his journey through grief, the impact of his writings, and his efforts to implement effective emotional and mental health programs. The conversation also touches on the critical need for collaboration between parents, schools, and society to support children's mental health and the potential role of mentorship in helping young people navigate their emotions.

00:00 Mission to End Silence and Stigma

01:16 Introduction to Chris Coulter and His Story

02:13 The Impact of Maddie's Loss

08:14 Challenges in Addressing Grief and Emotions

13:07 The Importance of Social-Emotional Learning (SEL)

17:17 Barriers in Schools and Potential Solutions

26:20 Combining Efforts of Schools and Parents

30:36 The Role of Extended Family in Child Development

31:44 Immigrant Families and Mental Health

33:26 Cultural Differences in Family Structures

34:44 The Importance of Family Connections

35:48 Challenges of Modern Parenting

40:15 Breaking the Silence on Mental Health

53:12 The Power of Mentorship

56:07 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript
Speaker:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: My

mission to end the silence, the

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stigma and shame about suicide

loss, ideation, and mental health.

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Please, won't you join me?

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Welcome to Suicide Zen Forgiveness,

the podcast that shares powerful

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stories of suicide loss, Ideation

and mental health in order to break

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the silence, stigma and shame.

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Our mission is to encourage empathy for

those experiencing these challenges.

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Every narrative serves as a

beacon of hope, want to touch

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lives and inspire resilience.

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Won't you join me in this journey as we

share stories to help others to find hope?

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Please note this podcast is

for educational purposes and

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may contain triggering content.

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If you're grieving or experiencing

mental health issues, please reach

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out to your local suicide hotline or

mental health office for immediate help.

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And now, let's start the show.

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Hello there.

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I'm glad to be back,

and here we are in:

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Can you believe that?

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Once again I am thrilled to

present to you a guest that I

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met through LinkedIn, I believe.

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His name is Chris Coulter, and his

company is The Finishing Line Group.

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And we are here today to talk

about Chris's daughter Maddie.

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And without further ado, I'm going to

step off and let Chris tell us maybe

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a little bit more about him first, and

then we'll get right into Maddie's story.

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Thank you and welcome.

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Chris Coulter: Thanks Elaine

It'ss nice to be here.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

Good to have you.

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Chris Coulter: My name is Chris

Coulter, and I guess I am a, I lost my

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daughter, Maddie, to suicide, almost,

it'll be 10 years this coming April.

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It's a lot of whole host of emotions

that I've gone through since then to the,

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for the, through the first probably five

years, I was really unable to do much

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other than help to manage my own grief.

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and deal and process with the pain that

I was experiencing and plus my two boys.

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Maddie was my eldest.

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She was 14 when she passed,

when she died by suicide and

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it was a fairly quick onset.

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I think there were a number of things

that contributed to it, including

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my divorce from her mom.

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Probably relocating to a new city.

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And then probably challenges

of going through a really.

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difficult divorce and doing the right

thing saying and doing the right thing

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or not necessarily the same thing.

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And unfortunately it's my

belief that Maddie was caught

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as a consequence of that.

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Anyway so for the first five years,

I was really unable to do much.

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I wrote about our trials and

tribulations, what we went through

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with Maddie with the hope that.

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Other people might read and understand

or be able to relate or may have

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gone through something similar.

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The intention behind me sharing my Our

story, first and foremost, was to ensure

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so no other family would endure the

hardship and pain that we went through.

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And I guess after about five years of

just writing and realizing that there

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were a lot of people who were reading my

stuff, I recognized that I don't think

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it was because I was such a great writer.

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I think it had to do more with the

fact that I was talking about a subject

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that is often wasn't shared back then.

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But also realizing how many other

parents were dealing with the same

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challenges with their own kids and

biggest challenge they faced was not

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understanding how to deal with it,

where to go, the resources available.

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largely because there weren't

a ton of resources or there

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aren't a ton of resources.

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We hopefully are in the midst of

remedying that to some extent, but

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we still, there's still a huge gap.

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And I guess after five years of writing I

decided to elevate my level of commitment.

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I think first and foremost, I think

I was at a place emotionally where I.

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I felt I could contribute more.

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Writing was great, but it was

also, it didn't give me the

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outlet that I felt we needed.

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And it didn't really address any

true practical practical things.

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That parents can deal with.

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And it didn't, it also didn't deal

with a lot of the societal issues that

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we're challenged with today that I

think are still a massive contributing

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factor to our kids mental health and

not just our kids mental health, but

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our own mental health as a consequence.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah, I

think as much as Because of people like

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yourself and others, we are getting more

conversation around suicide, around youth

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suicide, and I think it's really important

that you share stuff that gives people,

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tips for not just how to handle people.

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Michael.

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What's going on with their child, but

how to handle themselves, how to handle

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dealing with others, family, what have

you, because we still have not come out of

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the shame and the stigma and the silence.

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That is around, still, most suicide.

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There's still an awful lot of people

who, they're not even ready to

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acknowledge that's what happened.

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And I think, for one, I

think it's wonderful that

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you honor Maddie in that way.

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She is, Basically being a help to

all these other people, and we will

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definitely have some pictures on the

page because there's nothing I love

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more than seeing pictures of you

with Maddie and that beautiful smile.

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She, it seemed in every picture,

she's smiling and the two of you the

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happiness just spills from the page.

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And I don't say that to rub in that she's

gone, I say it to encourage the memories

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and the joy that you feel when you think

of her to make itself known and be more.

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Because one of the things, and you can

speak to this, but one of the things

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that I've found over the years is so many

people just aren't ready to talk about

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those they've lost because it hurts.

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And yet, I think, judging by what I

see with you and others, and what I

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feel about my friend Andrea, is the

more we talk about them, the more

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wonderful memories we have to hang on to.

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Chris Coulter: Yeah I agree.

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I think people, what I've discovered,

people have a really difficult time

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with dealing with grief, whether they

are, whether they're the ones who are

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experiencing the grief or those who are

trying to support someone who's grieving.

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And I think a lot of that comes back to.

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We are not taught about grieving.

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We learn it through lived experiences.

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And a big part of what I want to do is.

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Is to emphasize why it's so important

for kids to learn about their emotions

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to learn about all these upsetting

emotions that are so challenging

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and so difficult to deal with.

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And the large, the biggest one is grief

because schools tend to talk about.

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They talk about let's mindfulness.

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Let's talk about meditation.

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Let's talk about how are you feeling?

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Let's talk about all these

things that kind of scratch the

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surface, but they don't really

address the real issue at hand.

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It's how someone that doesn't understand

grief and doesn't understand the

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process of going through grief.

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They are.

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They're at a disadvantage.

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They don't know, they don't

know how to process it properly.

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And, as a consequence, they

can't truly move beyond it,

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or can't move forward with it.

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And, let's face it we've experienced a

tremendous amount of loss and grief and

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it's not something that we know how to we

can't expect or we know how to deal with.

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It's just it's a process and

we don't know how one loses.

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If someone loses a dog versus loses a

child, is their grief any less valid?

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It and I've had some really good

friends who, one who was one of

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my best friends who lost his dad

around the same time I lost Maddie.

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And his comment to me

was, I feel so guilty.

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That what I have from a loss perspective

relative to you, it feels like I have the

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flu compared to you who lost a daughter.

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And I said, Regardless of who

or how long it grief is grief,

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and it has to be acknowledged.

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There isn't a time frame that needs

to elapse or needs to go by before.

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Oh, thank goodness.

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I'm beyond the grieving

period that doesn't happen.

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We just learned that what we

have to do is we have to process.

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We have to accept it.

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And we talk through talk through

the grieving process and there's

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no real shortcut around it

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

and more than that.

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I believe we don't the

grieving never stops.

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It morphs into something

a little different.

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Eventually it's great

memories tinged with sadness.

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But I think for as long as we

live, we carry our grief with us.

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And it informs everything we are,

everything we do, and for me, you hit the

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nail on the head, it's not just grief.

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We are not taught how to

deal with emotions, period.

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We just aren't.

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You don't teach children in school how to

deal with anger, or how to deal with joy,

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because they're very powerful emotions.

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Period.

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And if you don't know what to do with

them, there, there are children who get

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so excited and can be so filled with joy,

they will actually hit another child.

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It's not in anger, it's not a meanness,

it, they don't know what to do with

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all those feelings, they're so vague.

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And it's, I've likened it over

time to, that old aunt who comes

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up and wants to grab your cheek and

squeeze the life out of your cheek.

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She's not trying to hurt you, but no one's

ever been told, these are big emotions.

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They feel very big and you have to.

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manage them somewhat.

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Chris Coulter: Absolutely.

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And I think it's appropriate.

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I talk about this SEL program that

I ran for a number of years and we

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had about 500 kids went through it.

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And it was it was an SEL program

called, how are you feeling?

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And it taught it basically, it

was a fun and interactive way.

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Kids learned about emotion, 33.

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Evidence based emotions, but it

was done in a fun and interactive

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way, utilizing clips and clips and

captions from movies and television.

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And so what it did, it took these, this

pop culture of approach to contextualizing

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what grief or what other serious emotion

and that's why this program is out there.

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So kids can understand it

without necessarily feeling

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vulnerable or feeling at risk.

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And so we had kids that went through

this SEL program and it was a big

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commitment was 12 hours that we

did over probably about six weeks.

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And the kids came out of the

program and they said, this

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program has changed our life.

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And When you have teenagers who say

something impacted them in such a way that

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you don't take those comments lightly.

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And they said, what can we do to help?

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And so we said, I said to them, I

said, listen, if you can go talk to

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your school administrators, tell your

parents what the program has done.

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And so they did.

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They went and they talked to

the school administration.

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They talked to the wellness department.

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Only to be told we already have a program,

we already have our programs in place,

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but this is the kicker, Elaine, of those

kids that went through our program, 95

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percent of those kids said what they

were learning in school with regards to

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emotional and mental health was completely

inadequate and completely inappropriate.

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And.

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And yet there are discountings in

one particular group, there were

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eight, eight, like 14 to 16 year

old teenage girls who said literally

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the program changed their life.

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And yet they said, you know

what, sorry, we'll test our own.

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We like our own products here.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: My God.

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Chris Coulter: And this unfortunately

is a very common occurrence.

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And it's they want to dip a toe.

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They don't want to dip the

foot or plunge the entire body.

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And so it's either commit to

doing it or get out of the way.

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And that's the problem.

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Schools have.

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They're scratching the surface

without making an impact.

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And our kids are in this epidemic that.

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They don't know how to feel good

about themselves and they're

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not learning how to do it.

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So it's, that's my

frustration with the schools.

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I think the schools that they embraced it

and they brought experts in, it doesn't

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have to be a teacher who does this.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: No,

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Chris Coulter: these programs are

very self, They're self directed

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and with a moderator, it can be so

much more impactful and powerful.

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And yet schools don't see

it or they elect not to.

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And I agree on that.

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I think I think.

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There is I think the, there's a litigious

potential from I think people at schools

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are afraid that they're going to get sued.

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We don't want to trigger anyone

in case something happens.

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Guess what?

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They're playing it safe

and people are still dying.

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So what's the lesser of two evils here?

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And by talking about suicide, All

studies have shown that, guess what,

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talking about it actually prevents it.

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Their stats and their argument

behind not supporting SEL programs in

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school is unfounded and quite frankly

the school and the administration.

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And now that so many of the school

boards are now suing the the social

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media companies, because Hey,

they're looking for a scapegoat.

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So is it right?

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Is it wrong?

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I don't know.

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I'm not, I don't have the educational

element to refute one way or the other,

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but I do have a lot of people who

have that education and they go this

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isn't the way it's supposed to work.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Okay,

let's just unpack that a little.

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SEL stands for.

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Chris Coulter: Social emotional learning.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: You want to

be sure that everybody understands that.

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Schools, because people have become so

litigious, even in Canada we were always

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the people who stood by the side and just

said, Oh, sorry for whatever happened.

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We don't do that anymore.

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And it's unfortunate, but the

other thing is this, I believe that

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we are, for the most part, humans

are Motivated and enshrined in

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fear most of the time and taking

yourself out of that comfort zone.

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And this would do that for the teachers,

the principals, the school boards.

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It's basically me.

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In a way, you're insulting

what they have by showing them

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something that actually works.

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And traditionally, institutions are

usually the last to get on board.

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There has to be another approach that can

get this to the schools and to the kids.

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Because not only do we not deal

with emotions or feelings, children

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are taught that We're children

aren't even taught that all the

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thoughts that run through your head.

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They're not necessarily real They're not

necessarily true, and you don't have to

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act on it just because it's in your head.

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That's a really important piece

that we're not giving kids.

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Because a lot of the problems that we

have as children and as adults are all

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those thoughts that run through our head.

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Bring social media into the picture.

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And for the most part, people put up

all the good stuff, only the good stuff.

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You can only look at that for so

long before the mirror that you,

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where you see you is Oh, yuck.

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Like, how come I don't have all that?

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Or why don't I look like that?

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Or why am I not that tall?

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Or yada yada.

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Chris Coulter: The whole

concept of hate liking, right?

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh my God.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I don't.

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Yeah, I can't even understand that.

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And, when I grew up I'm a baby boomer.

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So I grew up a long time ago.

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I never understood the concept of as

young preteens or teens, gangs of kids

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would go damage things for no reason.

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And I don't know if it's

because I grew up super poor.

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I grew up in a slum in Toronto after

we came to this country, and when you

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had something, you took care of it

because you didn't have very much.

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And I never understood that concept

of where you can just willfully damage

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something that belongs to another for

no other reason than you felt like it.

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But when we really take that apart.

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No one taught them to have respect

for other people's belongings.

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To have respect for the fact

that someone, worked hard to get

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something or to do something, and

they should be applauded for that.

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Very often, you'll find that a lot

of these people that do these things

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never had any positive reinforcement.

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Chris Coulter: Yeah, and I I also think

that kids look for outlet outlets and

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you know what, if you've got all this

turmoil going on inside your head,

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you're not sure how to dispel it.

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Maybe just go in and trashing someone's

house is a good way to blow off steam as

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asinine and as backwards as that might be.

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Yeah, no I agree with you.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah, I

don't want to sound trite, Maya Angelou

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said when we know better, we do better.

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Why not let them know better

when they're little and then

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they'll do better from the get go.

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And more than that, if you let kids

know that sharing your thoughts and

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finding out which thoughts, which

feelings are good or appropriate.

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In a given situation or, which thoughts

you're struggling with or which

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feelings are, overwhelming you, we

don't teach kids to share those things.

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And by the time you're, 10 or 11 now that

it's getting younger, they're in this

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hormone soup that just makes life better.

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So difficult.

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Think back to when you were a teen.

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There was no reasoning.

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There was, Friday night I would dash

home from school, do my chores as fast

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as humanly possible so that I could

get out of the house cause God forbid

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I didn't spend time with my friends.

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And, all those years later, my

daughter is 14 and she's rushing

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through her chores so she can get out.

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And I realize all of a sudden,

oh my God, I've become my mother.

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What the hell is so important that

you had thought, oh my God I was her.

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Like, how did this happen until we

are confronted with these things.

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We don't really think about

what's going on in their heads.

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Or the why behind it.

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Understanding that hormone soup is quite

frankly a recipe for disaster because

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it's a lot to handle even as an adult.

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Just one hormone goes wacko when

you're an adult and it's almost

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impossible to manage on your own.

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You have to think about young

teens and preteens that are having

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to navigate this by themselves,

because once again, we don't talk

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about the things that are awkward.

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We don't talk about the

things that are painful.

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Or that make us hurt or that, I don't

know, are not great at the dinner table.

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They need to be made

great at the dinner table.

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Chris Coulter: Here's the thing.

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There's.

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There's such a pushback from parents

in schools to talk about anything that

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can be too sensitive, too triggering.

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Guess what?

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If we don't have those real

conversation, the real conversations

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with those real life people.

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Things that impact them

on a day to day basis.

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They don't know they're left to

interpret that all on their own and

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often interpreting it incorrect.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Chris Coulter: So we've got

schools who are pushing back.

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We don't want to accept

that responsibility.

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Parents who often push back because.

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We don't want, we don't necessarily,

we're not equipped to be able to

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address that properly or appropriately.

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And then, so we've got all these kids

that are scratching their head going.

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Okay how do I deal with this?

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And unfortunately, you they get outlets

to sometimes unhealthy activities.

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I truly believe it's got to be a,

it's got to be a combination between

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schools and parents who impact.

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Parents have to become more educated

on social emotional learning.

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And schools have to be stopped

fearing so much that they're going

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to get sued if they do something.

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And I don't know a hundred

percent how to do that.

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Although.

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I'm in the midst of working on a

project right now that is, it's

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pretty powerful and pretty proud of.

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And so I guess when I have that

response from those kids that

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said the program changed our life.

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Or change their life and they went

to the schools and the schools pooh

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poohed it saying we got our own thing.

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Yeah, I went Okay.

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You know what I was so pissed Elaine

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh, yeah,

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Chris Coulter: they did that because

of that thing I said earlier when a kid

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tells you change their life you listen

like you those are just the most Those

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are the perfect words to act upon.

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And yet they discounted it.

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:

And so I'm working with a friend

of mine who owns a international

371

:

consumer insights company, like a

research company and another friend

372

:

of mine who owns a media company.

373

:

And so what we're doing is we,

I went to them because I wanted

374

:

to figure out a constructive

way to deal with this because.

375

:

You know what?

376

:

I can have my own little hissy fit

and be pissed off at the world, but

377

:

I didn't think that was actually

going to accomplish anything.

378

:

So I went to my two friends and I

said, this is what I want to do.

379

:

And so what we're doing is we're creating

a, we're creating a survey for for high

380

:

schools that we're going to measure the

success of, Mental and emotional health

381

:

programs that are taking place in schools.

382

:

But the difference, the swing, the

different swing on this is we're going

383

:

to have it evaluated by the students

themselves and we want and it's not the

384

:

purpose is not to shame the schools.

385

:

What we want to do is we want to

celebrate the schools who are doing a

386

:

really good job, we want to benchmark

and we want to raise the floor,

387

:

the

388

:

Chris Coulter: mental health floor

because there's so many schools who

389

:

are, they don't know how to attack this

and continuing down the current path.

390

:

That is not going to yield the

success that we think it's going to.

391

:

It basically, it's more or less

just burying our heads in the sand.

392

:

And we think this mental health

epidemic is going to go away.

393

:

It's not going to go away.

394

:

So we need to put some accountability

and transparency on the schools.

395

:

But also the parents have to own it too.

396

:

They can't just say, Oh, that's

the school's responsibility because

397

:

guess what end of the day, we are

responsible for how our kids turn.

398

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

They are our children.

399

:

Chris Coulter: Absolutely.

400

:

So I don't know what the perfect

solution is, but I do believe it is a

401

:

combination of schools and parents, but

also accountability and transparency.

402

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Absolutely.

403

:

I want to add one thought to that,

because when we came to this country,

404

:

rather than bring our furnishings, the

material things in life, my mother and

405

:

father brought my grandmother and my aunt,

okay, because family is what's important.

406

:

And that's the model I grew up with.

407

:

I can't imagine, I couldn't imagine

not having my gran and my aunt in my

408

:

life and my children the same thing.

409

:

My parents were a bit of an aberration

because they took the kids on

410

:

holiday all over Scotland, all over

California and Florida and you name it.

411

:

They were always taking them somewhere

and not all grandparents can or do that.

412

:

But having them a part of their lives.

413

:

We are not the traditional nuclear

family, it was never, that was never the

414

:

model that I grew up in nor what I saw,

frankly, in the people that I hung around

415

:

with, because a lot of my friends had

grandparents, aunts, uncles, living with

416

:

them and it's a very different format.

417

:

It's also, as a child, you know

you're accountable to more people.

418

:

It's not just your parents.

419

:

There's other people that you can talk

to, there's other people that you have

420

:

to be accountable to there's other

people that can get you in trouble, which

421

:

isn't always a good thing, but can be.

422

:

But

423

:

Chris Coulter: equally too, Elaine,

you're also exposed to a greater

424

:

amount of wisdom, collective wisdom.

425

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yes, and

I'm seeing this with our immigrants.

426

:

Thank you.

427

:

Because they are, there are other parts

of their families coming with them,

428

:

and it does allow for more wisdom,

more knowledge being passed down, more

429

:

culture, all of those things I think are

critically important for our well being.

430

:

And when you involve more of the

family members in making sure.

431

:

That the Children are well

rounded and mentally cared for

432

:

as well as emotionally cared for.

433

:

I think that's part of what's

missing in these past couple of

434

:

generations because that larger family.

435

:

Is not the norm, certainly not in the

North American set up, America or Canada.

436

:

Chris Coulter: What's interesting,

and I mentioned my friend who

437

:

owns the Marker Research Company.

438

:

He had some really fascinating statistics

about immigrants who have emigrated.

439

:

To Canada, their mental health levels or

their mental health issues are half that

440

:

of what Canadians or North Americans are.

441

:

So it's I saw that stat

and I went, Come on.

442

:

How is that?

443

:

That was true.

444

:

And you know what?

445

:

I haven't, I hadn't heard the whole

the nuclear family aspect of thing,

446

:

because Europeans, and I'm, of

course, I'm generalizing, but I'm

447

:

speaking from my perspective as well,

having been born and bred in Canada.

448

:

I have a very small family.

449

:

I've got, yeah, my brothers and my.

450

:

My parents divorce impacts your family.

451

:

It's I never, I don't have a relationship

with my cousins or my answer uncles.

452

:

Because of death or

because we just proximity.

453

:

And I think that's something that's

different from other cultures.

454

:

Asian

455

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: British,

456

:

Chris Coulter: South America,

a lot of South Americans.

457

:

You see these, this collection

of families, there's such a, like

458

:

where people know not just first

generation cousins, but second

459

:

and third generation of cousins.

460

:

And I guess a part of me feels a little

envious because I never really had that.

461

:

But I also could see how.

462

:

So how impactful it can have,

it can be to have access to all

463

:

those, this extended family.

464

:

And it's interesting and another

staff that came out from from my

465

:

friend's company it said that 30

percent 30 plus percent of kids

466

:

today between the ages of 12.

467

:

In 24 say they have no friend, they

have no friends or no close family

468

:

members that they can talk to.

469

:

And that tells you something about

that's very wrong with our society.

470

:

And that is a North American phenomena.

471

:

I'm not sure what the European

ones, but I'd hazard to guess.

472

:

That it doesn't follow suit.

473

:

It's certainly not as high in Europe

as it would be in North America.

474

:

But 30, think about that.

475

:

Yeah.

476

:

Chris Coulter: A third of people say

they have no one, not even a family

477

:

member, that they can actually,

they feel close enough to approach.

478

:

That is sad.

479

:

It is state of our sad,

state of our affairs.

480

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

You are so right.

481

:

And to speak to, you said, you

don't have a lot of family or

482

:

connections with your cousins or?

483

:

We were a tiny family.

484

:

My parents had two kids and each of us

have, my sister had one and I had two.

485

:

So we're very small family.

486

:

But.

487

:

And this is going behind the curtain,

but as you well know, I am connected

488

:

to my family because Scotland just

called before we started this show.

489

:

And it's nothing, it's not unusual

for my cousins and our young, our

490

:

generation and younger, we're on

Facebook and LinkedIn and what have you.

491

:

And I connect with my

cousins all the time.

492

:

Again, we're not a huge family.

493

:

But the connection is there and has

been, at least three generations

494

:

deep forever, in some cases more.

495

:

My father is still with us and he is

great grandfather to seven in total.

496

:

So that's a great connection.

497

:

And when my kids were little, They were

connected to my grandmother as well,

498

:

because she came to Canada with us.

499

:

So there was that direct connection.

500

:

But even at times, my parents

took the kids home to Scotland.

501

:

And we went home to stay

connected to our extended family.

502

:

And the rest of the family one up.

503

:

They had ten, eight to ten,

twelve kids, all of them.

504

:

So there were a lot of them and the aunt

and uncle that we came to when we first

505

:

came to Canada, they had seven kids.

506

:

So there was always someone that we

knew, but not huge, but it's a different,

507

:

mindset when you know that you can reach

out as much as it's across an ocean,

508

:

I do have the, to me, luxury of calling my

cousin, if there's an issue or if I just

509

:

want to vent, I will call my cousin, who's

just a couple of years older than me.

510

:

And we'll yak away and whatever.

511

:

And it's different from best friends.

512

:

It's different from the friends

that you have that are very close.

513

:

I'm sure your media friend and your

friend who does the, sorry, I forgot that.

514

:

Market research.

515

:

Market research.

516

:

Those are friends, but

you wouldn't necessarily.

517

:

Talk to them about an issue that you and

a significant other were having or an

518

:

issue that, say, you and your mom or dad

were not seeing eye to eye on something.

519

:

That's not really the

thing you talk about.

520

:

with friends per se, but

family members, absolutely.

521

:

You can do that.

522

:

So it is a very different

523

:

Chris Coulter: And I think depending upon

the nature of your friendship, yeah, it

524

:

can actually, It can be as it can cover a

variety of different subjects, including

525

:

parents, including because relatability

is so important as well, right?

526

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Absolutely.

527

:

You're right there.

528

:

There are those friends

who do become family.

529

:

And yeah, those you can talk.

530

:

With you can talk with

about absolutely anything,

531

:

Chris Coulter: but I think there's

still a level of discomfort

532

:

in talking about, right?

533

:

It's something.

534

:

You know what?

535

:

I don't want to burden you with this.

536

:

Yeah.

537

:

So I'm going to suck it up and just.

538

:

deal with it my own.

539

:

Is that the right way to do it?

540

:

It was probably my usual way of dealing

with it in the past until I recognized

541

:

I better start practicing what I preach

542

:

and

543

:

Chris Coulter: actually doing the things

I write about and suggest to others,

544

:

because otherwise people are just gonna.

545

:

Talk, call me a total hypocrite.

546

:

But that is, and it is uncomfortable,

especially these are skills that,

547

:

you know, what they were not born

with and they're uncomfortable

548

:

and they make us feel very self

conscious and very vulnerable.

549

:

And I think by being able to talk about

this stuff, it hopefully will open up the

550

:

conversation for other people to be able

to have these difficult conversations,

551

:

because there's clearly not enough

difficult conversations we're having.

552

:

And

553

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: It took me

such a long time to understand that I

554

:

have always been a very good listener.

555

:

Because I'm curious and I

want to know everything.

556

:

I want to hear what people have to say.

557

:

And that's great.

558

:

But when you lock everything away inside

and think that it's you against the whole

559

:

wide world, and not in a combative way.

560

:

But I, I think I really thought

I was protecting my family

561

:

from me because I'm such a big

whatever, it's such a silly thing.

562

:

But even as a child at school, I

was just the kind of kid who my

563

:

parents had enough to deal with and

my aunt was very sick and my sister.

564

:

I had a rough time as a baby, so I

would handle things on my own because

565

:

I didn't want to put it off on them.

566

:

My, my aunt, funny enough, was,

she was always my sounding board.

567

:

We talked about everything.

568

:

She took me to see Jesus Christ

Superstar and Hair and introduced me to

569

:

Broadway and horror and taught me that

reading was the most wonderful thing

570

:

in the world when I was really young.

571

:

And having those kind of relationships,

even that didn't stop me from insulating

572

:

and isolating myself because of the

thoughts in my head, had I actually shared

573

:

any of that, then my aunt, my mom, my

grand, someone could have told me that.

574

:

That's not necessarily true.

575

:

That isn't you don't have to do that.

576

:

And things may have been different.

577

:

Chris Coulter: And I think also

generation generationally there is I think

578

:

old, older school individuals have

a, we don't air our dirty laundry.

579

:

When do we air it?

580

:

Yeah.

581

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

582

:

It's so true.

583

:

I was 12 when I started volunteering

at a very huge facility in Smith Falls

584

:

at what they called then an asylum.

585

:

It was an eighth of a mile long,

the main building, and had housed

586

:

thousands and thousands of people.

587

:

And working there, I volunteered until

I was 15, and then I was hired for

588

:

summer, for the next couple of summers.

589

:

It gives you a very different

perspective back then, because yeah,

590

:

you don't air your dirty laundry.

591

:

You don't tell people.

592

:

About weird things going on in your head.

593

:

And back then, I don't know if it

was 68 or 69, there was even a song

594

:

called they're coming to take me away.

595

:

Ha he ho to the funny farm where

life is beautiful all the time.

596

:

And I worked there, I knew it wasn't,

but that was why many of us said nothing.

597

:

Because when you saw within your own

family, or you knew someone who had a

598

:

problem within their family, with all

your thoughts going through your head

599

:

and as a teenager, some of those thoughts

were so bizarre, it became a sort of

600

:

protection, if you will, self protection.

601

:

So you thought, we have to get past

that now with children so that we

602

:

can let them know that We adults, we

are a safe space where we can help

603

:

you navigate that hormone soup, we

can help you navigate the thoughts in

604

:

your head and handle the feelings that

you have in a more productive way.

605

:

Chris Coulter: And I think when

we, those thoughts that go on our

606

:

head, especially as we're young

and unsure and lack confidence.

607

:

We don't know if the other people

have these thoughts or if they

608

:

don't, why am I having them?

609

:

And maybe I should just shut up

and keep my thoughts to myself.

610

:

And therefore they never get processed

and therefore never get dealt with.

611

:

And we just, we deal with this

kind of shame that kind of lingers

612

:

in our, in the back of our minds.

613

:

And going, I don't know if I feel safe

to, to share what I feel right now.

614

:

And as a consequence, we

tended to just push it inward.

615

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

Yeah, that's all true.

616

:

And when I started this podcast,

my, my mission is to end the

617

:

silence, the stigma and the shame.

618

:

Because if we deal with those things and

get them out of the way and normalize

619

:

conversations, Then we're halfway there.

620

:

Chris Coulter: Yep.

621

:

No, I totally agree.

622

:

I totally agree.

623

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

It's wonderful to talk to you.

624

:

I thank you so much for coming on the show

and discussing difficult topics with me.

625

:

I think it's so important and I just, God,

I would like to see your program go ahead.

626

:

I, I.

627

:

I can't imagine you're sitting on

what can amount to a gold mine to

628

:

help kids and not being able to go

nowhere has to be so frustrating.

629

:

Chris Coulter: And I think

that's the problem, right?

630

:

We get frustrated.

631

:

We go down a path.

632

:

Take the path that I was on with

the, how are you feeling program?

633

:

Yeah,

634

:

Chris Coulter: I could have been

really frustrated, kicked my,

635

:

stomped my feet and said, brr, this

is so aggravating and just stopped.

636

:

But I think probably because of what we

went through with Maddie, and because

637

:

it's so personal, and because I've had

my own bouts with depression and suicidal

638

:

ideation, and I recognize that this we

can take a pass, or we can actually, we

639

:

can start having the tough conversations.

640

:

And I think, so many of these

grassroots charities that are trying

641

:

to do all these things and they've got

great mission and vision statements.

642

:

The problem I find with a lot of

these agencies is they work in silos.

643

:

And I think what we need to do as a

society is to encourage collaboration.

644

:

And stop looking at all these

other people that are trying

645

:

to do what we're trying to do.

646

:

As competition and look at it, I never

want to be, if I'm the smartest guy in

647

:

the room, then this world is in trouble.

648

:

So that's all I can say.

649

:

So I always wanted, I always want to

surround myself with just deep thinkers,

650

:

people who are actionable, but also

passionate and want to change, and there

651

:

are a lot of, there are a lot of people

who are That want to do really good

652

:

things, and it's a matter of finding them

a matter of rallying them and collectively

653

:

being able make a change and feel

like people actually can make a change.

654

:

I think there's so much frustration

right now because of our political

655

:

environment because of the.

656

:

The financial aspect of we're

under we're underfunded in so many

657

:

reasons, much needed resources.

658

:

It doesn't, we need to emphasize more

on prevention as opposed to remediation.

659

:

And, That's probably been

my biggest frustration.

660

:

And I'm sure similar to you, Elaine,

I get, I have so many people that

661

:

reach out to me and just go I, my,

my son or daughter just tried to

662

:

take their life or worse and they go.

663

:

I didn't see it coming.

664

:

And so when I tried to try to emphasize,

you won't always see it coming, but you

665

:

got to have those tough conversations.

666

:

You have to have real conversations and

ignorance is not an excuse for your child

667

:

to be able to navigate

this emotional journey.

668

:

It is I use, I'll use this stat.

669

:

So we had 500 kids that went

through our, how are you feeling?

670

:

Program.

671

:

We gave access to the program to the

kids and to their parents, and we

672

:

encourage the parents to watch it as well.

673

:

And because of the way we set up the

platform, we could see who was watching

674

:

it when, and we could see how much

people were actually watching it.

675

:

So even though it was a state of the

art program, and the kids said that they

676

:

were getting so much out of it, Less than

5 percent of parents actually took the

677

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: time to

678

:

Chris Coulter: watch the program.

679

:

Those who did said, Oh my

God, this is so invaluable.

680

:

And yet, we think that we, if we don't

talk about it, we can just slip through

681

:

accidentally without triggering our kids.

682

:

The reality is, if we're not having these

real life conversations with them, We're

683

:

setting our kids up for a world of hurt.

684

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah, because

those conversations are happening

685

:

in the wrong places with the wrong

people and the outcomes are wrong.

686

:

Chris Coulter: Exactly.

687

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And not to

dump on the parents because I get it.

688

:

Fear can make you static.

689

:

It can make you not want to rock

the boat, not say anything that's

690

:

going to have your child implode

or go off on you or what have you.

691

:

But, and this may be controversial, but.

692

:

You are their parent.

693

:

You can't always be their friend.

694

:

That's not your job.

695

:

You need to be thinking one or two steps

ahead, so that you can show them the way.

696

:

But you can't do that if you

just stick your head in the sand.

697

:

Chris Coulter: And I think

there's another really strong

698

:

argument for another solution.

699

:

There's a lot of kids who have

this phobia of therapists.

700

:

They don't want to go see a therapist,

whatever the stigma associated with it.

701

:

And parents don't have all the answers.

702

:

They don't know how to

have those conversations.

703

:

And quite frankly it's

difficult to be an objective of.

704

:

Third party to your own child.

705

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh my God.

706

:

Yeah.

707

:

Chris Coulter: So there is a very

interesting business model for a

708

:

mentoring type of mentoring relationship

that exists between kids who, and they

709

:

may not and I'm not pretending to say

those who have mental health challenges

710

:

shouldn't have therapists or treatment.

711

:

Yeah.

712

:

It's those who, like many kids,

are lacking confidence, or lacking

713

:

direction, or they just, they don't

know how to have those conversations.

714

:

They want to, They don't necessarily

have the dynamic of the relationship

715

:

with their parents that they

can have those conversations,

716

:

not in a, in an objective way.

717

:

And that's why I think,

and I mentor a few kids.

718

:

And it is amazing how much I just see

these kids elevate in their spirits.

719

:

And it's got to be the right mentor.

720

:

It's got to be someone who is

emotionally intelligent who can

721

:

actually be kind and compassionate

and supportive and empathetic.

722

:

Cause there are, I think

there's a big opportunity there.

723

:

And.

724

:

If parents aren't willing to have the

conversations and kids aren't necessarily

725

:

willing to see the therapist, perhaps

there is a third party or middle ground.

726

:

That might be a really good solution

for those who don't know where to go.

727

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah,

it's a stepping stone to where they

728

:

need to go because a mentor could

even help to bridge the divide

729

:

between the parent and the child.

730

:

Chris Coulter: Oh, I've had a couple like

that, but even think about it this way.

731

:

Think about someone who is challenged

with their sexual orientation.

732

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

733

:

Chris Coulter: Or they're

having these confusing thoughts.

734

:

Imagine having a conversation

with a mentor who's someone who's

735

:

part of the LGBTQ2T community.

736

:

Yeah.

737

:

Who can share their experiences when

they came out or what were the challenges

738

:

that they faced or it could be a sports

leader who someone who decided they

739

:

wanted to pursue athletics at university.

740

:

But they didn't know the pros and the

cons, and they just wanted to ask someone

741

:

about it, how to navigate that journey.

742

:

So there's lots of applications

in safe, in a safe way.

743

:

And if you have the right leadership

and the right mentorship, these

744

:

kids can actually be, can be groomed

and walked down this pathway to, of

745

:

understanding, understanding their

emotions and understanding and prepare

746

:

themselves for life and life's challenges.

747

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah, because,

I say no man or woman is an island.

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We need others in our life to,

to teach us, to show us, to, to

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laugh with us, to cry with us.

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We need others to be a safe space,

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because sometimes that's all we need

to be able to step up for ourselves.

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Is have that safe space.

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Chris Coulter: Absolutely.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Wow.

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You, you've left me an

awful lot to think about.

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I'm sure the audience as well.

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We will have more information on

your program and on what Chris is

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doing and how to get a hold of him

down below on the page where you

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will find all of Chris's information.

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I cannot thank you enough for

spending time with me today, Chris.

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So appreciated.

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And Thank you also to Maddie.

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It's difficult for you to go

through, but what a wonderful

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father she had who stepped up

and is now trying to help others.

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I think that's incredible.

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Chris Coulter: Thank you for thanks for

having me on your show And allowing me

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to share my story and appreciate it.

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And thank you for creating a

forum for others to do the same.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Thank you.

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And to our audience, I say,

thank you for listening.

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We appreciate you joining us

and as always make the very

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most of your today every day.

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And we'll see you next time.

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Bye for now.

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Voiceover: Thank you for being

here for another inspiring episode

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of Suicide Zen Forgiveness.

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We appreciate you tuning in.

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Please subscribe and download on your

favorite service and check out SZF's

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YouTube channel or Facebook community.

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If you have the chance to leave

a five star rating or review,

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it'd be greatly appreciated.

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Please refer this to a friend you

know who may benefit from the hope

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and inspiration from our guests.

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Suicide Zen Forgiveness was brought

to you by the following sponsors.

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Trul Social Media, the digital

integration specialists.

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Let them get you rockin page

one in the search results.

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Canada's Keynote Humorist, Judy Kroon.

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Motivational speaker, comedian, author,

and stand up coach at Second City.

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Judy has been involved for over

a decade in the City Street

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Outreach Program in Toronto.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

The Ultimate Podcasting Pack.

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This is great for you if you're

just starting your podcast, or if

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you've been running it for a while.

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It's filled with tools, templates,

and trainings for starting, growing,

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and monetizing your podcast.

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Get access to time saving systems

and strategies for accelerating

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:

your process at each step.

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Find new connections and collaborations

in the uplifting podcasting community.

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I look forward to seeing you there.

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Voiceover: Do you have a story to share?

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Do you know someone you

think would be a great guest?

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Please go to SZF42.

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:

com and for our American

listeners, that's SZF42.

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com.

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Thank you for listening and

we hope to see you again.

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Show artwork for Suicide Zen Forgiveness Stories re Suicide Loss | Ideation | Mental Health | Offering Hope |Empathy for All

About the Podcast

Suicide Zen Forgiveness Stories re Suicide Loss | Ideation | Mental Health | Offering Hope |Empathy for All
Sharing Stories to Offer Hope
Adding empathy and offering hope to end the silence, stigma, and shame. ~Elaine Lindsay©2021

Come along on the transformative journey of ’Suicide Zen Forgiveness,’ where host Elaine Lindsay, a suicide loss survivor and advocate, invites listeners to break the silence about mental health struggles. Elaine wants to remove the shame felt by all who are touched by suicide loss, ideation and mental health. With over 50 years of personal experience, Elaine offers candid conversations, heartfelt stories, and practical insights aimed at ending the stigma and offering hope. Each episode explores themes of resilience, gratitude, and growth, encouraging listeners to navigate life’s challenges with bravery and compassion. Tune in for a blend of wisdom, authenticity, and unwavering support on a group journey of healing, hope, and understanding.

About your host

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Elaine Lindsay